21 Hats Podcast

Jared Bell never planned to own a fencing business. He took a summer job at Butte Fence in 1994, liked the work, and decided to skip college and stay. Thirteen years later, he bought out a partner and took over day-to-day operations—just in time for the Great Recession. The company survived that challenge and has gone on to thrive, but not by following a conventional growth playbook. Bell has expanded the business by repeatedly asking a simple question: Why buy from a supplier when we can do it better ourselves? Over the years, Butte Fence has developed new products, configured mo...

The new pay transparency laws were designed to help job applicants and narrow pay disparities. But they've also had an unintended consequence: Employees now have far more information about what other people are making—and that can raise some uncomfortable questions for business owners. How do you decide what a job is worth? How much should you pay compared to the market? How much should employees know about what their co-workers earn? This week, Jay Goltz, Jennifer Kerhin, and Ted Wolf compare notes on compensation. Jennifer explains how her philosophy has evolved from offering below-market pay and maximum fle...

A health scare in 2015 prompted Julia Beardwood to confront a question many business owners prefer to postpone: What happens when it's time to leave the business? Over the next several years, the founder of the New York City branding agency Beardwood explored a range of possibilities, including selling to an ESOP and pursuing a strategic acquisition. But when the time came, the solution turned out to be much closer to home. Years earlier, Julia had implemented a compensation strategy that gave key employees a meaningful stake in the company's success. What began as a way to motivate and retain talent...

The promise is seductive: Implement the right operating system and your frustrations disappear. Your employees become more accountable. Communication improves. Growth follows. Your business finally runs the way you always hoped it would. That's the promise behind EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System popularized by Gino Wickman's book Traction. Plenty of business owners swear by it. Plenty have spent tens of thousands of dollars hiring EOS implementers to help put it in place. But does it work?This week, we’re republishing one of our favorite conversations, one in which Shawn Busse, Paul Downs, and Laura Zander compare notes on...

For years, Kim Robinson worked on the brand side, helping major companies connect with artists and creatives. Eventually, he decided he’d rather be working for the artists themselves. So he launched 3pts, a company that helps creatives handle the business side of their careers—everything from pricing and marketing to partnerships and strategy—so they can spend more time focused on the work they love.The first challenge, Kim says, is convincing artists that thinking about money and business doesn’t somehow compromise their creativity. The second is helping them understand that even the most gifted creatives still need a framew...

This week, Sarah Segal, Jaci Russo, and Lena McGuire tackle a question many service business owners face: Which is the bigger risk—an employee who feels overburdened or a client who feels neglected? The discussion begins with Sarah explaining why she's had to reestablish boundaries with some clients who were texting and calling her employees after hours and bypassing the systems her agency has put in place. Sarah wants her team to be able to disconnect at the end of the day, and she wants clients communicating with the entire team assigned to their account—not developing overly close relationships with...

Sean Joy is head of M&A at Chenmark, a Portland, Maine-based holding company that acquires a handful of small businesses each year. At first glance, Chenmark may sound like a traditional private equity firm, but it isn't. The company is family- and employee-owned, and when it buys a business, the goal isn't to improve it and sell it a few years later. The goal is to own it indefinitely.In our conversation, Sean explains what Chenmark looks for in an acquisition, how it finds businesses to buy, what it's willing to pay, and how it approaches management after a...

This week, we explore some contrasting opinions about artificial intelligence. Paul Downs has serious doubts that AI will ever have a significant impact on his business. Paul, who builds custom conference tables, says his business depends on something AI still lacks: real world experience. While AI can generate impressive images and concepts, he argues that it has no understanding of manufacturing constraints, material properties, production processes, or the capabilities of the people and machines that have to bring an idea to life. “An image of a thing that looks cool is not a design,” Paul says. “A design is a set of...

When Bryan Clayton graduated from college, he discovered he had two options: take an entry-level job and a pay cut—or go back to mowing lawns, which was already making him more money. He chose the lawns. Over time, he built a commercial landscaping business that grew to $10 million in annual revenue before eventually selling it. But even while running that business, Clayton had been thinking about another problem: why was it still so hard for homeowners to hire a reliable lawn service?Despite having no background in technology, Clayton bootstrapped a platform called GreenPal, which connects homeowners with lawn-care sp...

Twenty years ago, Bo Burlingham gave a name to a feeling a lot of business owners had struggled to articulate. In his book Small Giants, Bo profiled companies that had chosen not to chase growth at all costs. Most were bootstrapped, owner-operated businesses that cared less about getting big than about building something enduring, meaningful, and excellent. They weren’t anti-growth. They just wanted growth to be intentional. And for many owners who read the book, the reaction was immediate: “I thought I was the only one who felt this way.” Out of that recognition grew a community—and eventually an organ...

When Eugene Khayman first got involved with Million Dollar Sellers, it was essentially a support group for entrepreneurs building businesses on Amazon. Back then, the opportunity seemed almost limitless. Today, ecommerce feels a lot more complicated. Competition is tougher. Customer acquisition is more expensive. And sellers have many options beyond Amazon. At the same time, Khayman believes Amazon itself has changed—and not for the better. In a recent post on X, he argued that Amazon’s growing fees are “destroying the marketplace it created.” He’s now leading a campaign called Save Our Sellers, aimed at pushing back on policies t...

Michelle Wyatt has replayed the events in her mind countless times, looking for warning signs she might have missed. But even now, she can’t find any. Both employees had passed background checks and drug tests. Both were considered trusted, valued members of the team. And yet, within a span of months, two violent incidents involving employees left Michelle and her company reeling. In this week’s conversation, Michelle joins Jay Goltz, who has dealt with employee violence in his own business, and special guest Sandy Kapell, who’s made a career leading human resources, to wrestle with a question that h...

Hannah Sandmeyer spent years acquiring ecommerce businesses for an Amazon aggregator, giving her a front-row seat to how deals get done—and what often gets lost in the process. Too many owners, she came to believe, are forced to choose between shutting down their businesses or selling to buyers whose priorities may have little to do with preserving the company, the culture, or the people who built it. So she decided to build an alternative. Hannah is now founder and CEO of Steward Market, which she describes as “the first marketplace for ethical exits.”In this week’s Dashboard, she explains...

When Kate Morgan started thinking seriously about selling her business, she assumed the big payoff would come at closing. But as she tells David C. Barnett and Paul Downs this week, she’s come to understand that the smarter move might be not selling—at least not yet. Why? Because if the business keeps performing and she can gradually remove herself from the day-to-day operations, she may ultimately make more money by continuing to own it. That’s partly because, as David explains, small businesses often sell for lower multiples than owners expect. Which means the real value may not be in...

Most business owners know they need marketing. What many don’t know is what they should be paying for it—or what they should expect in return. So when an SEO agency proposes a $3,500-a-month plan, how do you assess whether it’s a smart investment or an expensive gamble? Do you know how many new customers it would take to make that spend worthwhile? Do you even have the data to answer that question? This week, Shawn Busse says too many owners are making those decisions in the dark. He offers a practical framework to help you do the math t...

Every business owner looks forward to that big break—the moment that you land a big client or a major retailer, or do something that puts you on a national stage. But those opportunities don’t just reward you. They can also expose you—especially if you have to take on debt or ramp up production or do things you haven’t done before. Four years ago, when Liz Picarazzi won a high-profile installation for her trash enclosures in Times Square, it was exactly that kind of opportunity. Her enclosures were put to the test in as public and as challeng...

For years, the Wine School of Philadelphia and PhillyWine LLC coexisted in the genteel world of wine education. Then a trademark dispute turned that quiet coexistence into a legal battle—complete with accusations, lawsuits, and mounting costs.This week, Keith Wallace, founder of the Wine School of Philadelphia, joins me to talk about what happens when a business owner who’s tried to avoid litigation at all costs suddenly finds himself in the thick of it. He shares what the fight has actually required—financially, emotionally, and strategically—and what he wishes he had done differently before things escalated. Because one of t...

For Lena McGuire, scope creep really can show up around every corner. She’s in the home remodeling business. But for most owners, including Jaci Russo and Ted Wolf, projects that expand out of control can be less visible but just as hard to contain. It’s baked into the job, because every assignment comes with a built-in tradeoff: Protect your margins or protect the relationship. And especially in the early days of a business, when reputation feels like everything, that’s not much of a choice. “I was afraid to have tough conversations with people,” Ted says. “I just wanted every...

Despite what we’ve been reading about tariffs and immigration and inflation and health insurance, the macro economy has actually held up better than many economists expected over the past year. Unemployment is low, corporate profits are high, and the stock markets have been setting records. So, this week, I put the question to John Arensmeyer, CEO and founder of Small Business Majority: Are things really that tough for small businesses? Well, yes, says John. It’s not necessarily any one issue, he says. It’s the constant drip, drip, drip of many issues. In this week’s conversation, we tackle s...

Early on, William Vanderbloemen’s search firm was exactly the kind of business HubSpot, the marketing platform, was built to help. William had a highly specialized audience, his team produced content that his audience needed, and HubSpot helped make sure the right people found it. Back then, he tells Kate Morgan and Jaci Russo, HubSpot’s promise was that it could help a David compete with a Goliath, and that’s what it did for Vanderbloemen Search.But that was almost 20 years ago, long before AI began reshaping how people discover information. Now, William contends, the rules are changi...